004: How to Build a Learning Organization With Hank Malik

In this episode, Andrea invites Hank Malik to discuss knowledge management and what to do for building a top-learning organization.

Hank is an experienced Knowledge Management and Transformation Lead, Specialist,
Practitioner, Author, and Speaker with over twenty years of working in the fields of
Knowledge, Information, Change Management, and Learning and increasingly Digital

By listening to the show, you’ll learn:

1) What is knowledge management, how to capture and learn lessons in an organization
2) The role of culture and behaviors in top-learning organizations
3) How to incentivize employees to share more internally and break silos

You can contact Hank at: [email protected] or find him on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hank-malik-93080918/

Read the insight about the episode: https://www.andreapetrone.com/how-to-build-a-learning-organization/

If you have any comment or insight about this episode, email Andrea at:
[email protected]

To connect with Andrea on Social Media:
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreapetrone/
Twitter – https://twitter.com/ie_andrea

(These are auto-generated transcripts. Forget the typos)

Welcome to a new episode of The World Class leadership. And today I’m very excited to have with me Anke, Malik Anki is an experienced knowledge management and transformation lead specialist practioner, author and speaker with over 20 years work in the fields of knowledge, information change management, and learning and increasingly digital transformation. I had the pleasure actually to met anchor in in event A few years ago, I think, and I go digital Abu Dhabi. And we had a great conversation about digital transformation, but also knowledge management. So and thank you so much for being in the show today.

Yes, good. Good morning, many. Very, very excited to be here.

Would you like to explain a little bit more, what does really mean knowledge management.

course. So knowledge management is nothing new, it’s been around since the beginning of time. And in the current status, it looks around the concept of tacit knowledge, which is knowledge in our heads, and how we can manage that how we can capture learnings from that experiences to perform processes better. But it’s also the explicit knowledge, which is the knowledge that we write down, we codify we put into books into documents. And what I’ve been doing for the last 15 plus years is to really help organisations to be able to manage both the tacit and the explicit knowledge. And the four components which make up knowledge management and my, my thinking, one is around information and content. That’s key. That’s the documents and actual recall the assets. The second is around expertise, so that skills and know how, which is incredibly difficult to capture and to nurture organisations. The third is collaboration. So that’s communities, networks, forums, connecting people together. And then the fourth one, which I think we’re going to focus on is learning. That’s a critical element of knowledge management. And in a number of cases, it gets diluted, but for me, the biggest success I’ve had to date in my career has been in the learning lessons learned field. So they’re the four components behind that.

Okay, cool. So that’s a good start. So before jumping into into one of those primary, the learning, would you like to explain maybe to the audience, why, you know, you, you arrived this in your in your career development, right?

So my background is actually instructional design as a learner as a learning instructor in the very first days of Cubase training, computer based e learning. And from that I got I moved into the concept of groupware, which was basically the group where it was a term I mentioned in the in the 90s. Around connecting people, and I worked for an amazing organisation called Lotus that some of you may remember. And Lotus created an amazing tool called Lotus Notes. And this was almost the the forefather for the web. It was before the web, but it was actually competing with a product called Netscape, which I’m not sure some of our listeners may remember as the first web based application. So it’s an application way ahead of its time, and it was involved with connecting individuals together. It will evolve with documents He was very much an early early tool which became synonymous with knowledge management. So from there, I then focus in group where and then I moved into, into knowledge management, working for the big consultancies and then moving into the industry where I’ve led teams as head of km and K in Leeds. So there’s a story from learning into groupware technology and then into broader knowledge management.

Okay, excellent. And you started your consultancy recently, right after?

That’s right. Correct. So after I’m about, as I said, 50 plus years in the consulting industry, well, I’ve decided to set up my own consulting practice.

Kumar, Congratulation, of course, thanks. So why don’t we jump into the interview topic, because it sounds super interesting, you know, especially for leaders right now is our to retaining knowledge, but also doing, you know, improve, increase the learning their learning abilities, while but also combined with tools and system processes. So you mentioned you would like to focus on learning and which, you know, I totally agree, because I think there is a problem right now in the organisation how to capture these learning from what they’re doing, you know, either on a business level project level, but also on on other elements, you know, more about the soft skill, for example, you know, to retain this. So what is your approach on learning Danang?

Okay. So the big question on learning from within my field is, I think of it as two areas, there’s the formal learning, which is instruction based design, training, that’s, that’s University skills. Its education. So that’s the formal learning piece. I’ve progressed. And I’m now focusing more on the informal way, which I think knowledge management, and collaboration captures the informal learning. So that covers the areas around things such as tacit capture, knowledge, cafes, learning lessons learned is a big push. And I’ve worked in a number of major projects around the learning organisation, you may have heard this. Yeah, I’m sure some of our listeners have heard this. And it’s been around for a long time. It was actually coined by Peter. But Peter sankeys model, the learning organisation, and it focuses very much about lessons learned. And there’s two areas rehab behind this one is learning from experience. So my background, which I’ll also try to share in those meetings for oil and gas, my own my focus on energy. So they’re, they have a big push about learning from experience, that’s a term we use oil and gas. Yeah. So this is learning from past events. It’s learning from performance improvements, learning from projects, but equally also learn from incidents, which is the other side, which has to do with learning from, you know, big issues that happen. So in the energy sector, it’s learning from major incidents that have occurred, why did that occur? And how can we repeat those mistakes, not not repeat those mistakes? So there’s an aspect about a lot of times companies make the same mistakes, again, we duplicate the same things. So we’re not learning. And that’s a big issue that I think my my knowledge manager tries to capture.

And I’m ready to 100% because one of the things I’ve noticed in my experience, but also now is lesson learned, actually, I was talking about you know about this with the client a few days ago, his lesson learned is not properly capture. And one of the one of the reasons I think, but I’m very curious to hear your your point of view on this is one of the reasons I think is not really working is the fact that the pace of what they are doing so fast, and people are jumping from one project to another from one activity to another, and they forget they need they still need to learn from the past is I think, is the pace element. Is it right?

Yeah, yeah, very much. So another model, which is very famous, and you want a gas sector is about learning before, during and after. So we’re very good at learning after, after a major incident, we tried to let there’s a big focus, you know, there’s been a big incident, we need to capture that the learnings of what happened, but we’re very poor at learning before ordering. So again, something in the knowledge management world is it’s something we call around peer assist peer advice, learning before you start something that means connecting experts together. So what I also do is tend to bring experts onto a project at the beginning of a project. So we have the concept of a home team and an away team. And the home team is actually starting the project or starting the major event, but they need to learn from what happened before on a similar project. So you have the concept of bringing in experienced our expertise, and to make sure that the learning cycle starts before a project or event to save cost money and time. And big issues later down the line. But it happens traditionally very cool. You kick off a project, you capture the project team and off you go but How many times do we actually try to speak to an earlier project team about startup and good practices?

And I love what you say, because I think you’re right, it, it’s really building a learning organisation. Because if you have that mentality and attitude and mindset that the capture of all these learning, it comes easy, right? Because you’ll have that in your mindset. Right?

But also, um, I think you’ve learned, for me the terminology is not 100% correct? Because when we capture learning sets learning identified, right, you can capture it, you identify those, it’s only once they’ve been verified, approved by technical experts approved by the leadership team. And applied, then it becomes a lesson learned. Yeah, there’s sometimes quite a misnomer about

lessons, right? It’s a very good point capture is just taking that information, but then how using the information to get things better, is completely different thing. Right? And I’m very curious how you instil this new attitude, new mindset in organisation, if they’re not used to that.

Yeah, yeah. So I’ll be born into three major projects and gas companies in the past. And the number one issue one brought in is potentially because either companies, particularly energy, they had to cut costs and do more with less, or a major incident had occurred. And we had to make sure we avoided that incident. So there was a really real burning platform beforehand, a driver to come in. And then what we focused on is particularly I was working threes, I don’t know, if you always work in threes, you do that in threes. So what I always attempted to do was to look at the top three major issues facing the organisation where we need to learn. So it may be a project called cost reductions, project efficiency, safety, health, and safety is a big area. And then we focus on actually creating a learning organ or learning a wrapper around a project. So the biggest success I’ve had is, is on projects, particularly if you have a project which has defined project steps such as you know, identification selection. It’s much stronger data capture lessons learned, I think from a project or project organisation, a project process initially, then general operations such as finance, or HR, because projects have defined milestones. So an introducing the learning concept, again, is quite challenging to project managers, because they, they try to look at it either reluctantly say, well, we do that the end of the project, that’s the pie or the project Review Board, we capture the learnings. So that the biggest challenge is that challenging that mindset, our project managers directors, that each cake at each key stage of a project, you should capture learnings, lessons learned good practices, and feed that into a cycle. And that’s why I’ve seen success with some of the big oil and gas companies.

So in other words, what you’re saying is if you applying this concept methodology on specific projects, it gets much easier because you have milestone so it’s easier to actually stop check and then go right, correct.

Yeah. And so so what are the big old gas companies, we talked to adopters, and again, what I’m saying when it gas, you could happen to any aerospace organisation. It’s quite rigid, you can’t go to the next stage gate until you’ve done a full lesson learn project review, you’ve captured those learnings there. They’re documented and they put it into a close out report for that stage and signed off by the project directors and any learnings taken events transferred to the next stage? Yeah, and in some cases where that learning has been buried, hold on, oh, it’s been a real breakthrough learning, you could actually go to a digital decision Review Board to actually change the the working practices the ESOP, you know, the operating procedures, and I’ve seen that happen. So this is fundamentally such an important learning, it could actually help improve the processes.

Yeah, we Chandana de improve the performance organisation,

that’s what I want to do in my career, where that’s happened. That’s the real, you know, aha moment that, that mortgage management is creating real value at that level.

And they actually you anticipate me because I was going to ask you that. So from a leadership from a leader standpoint, you know, at the end of the day, the question is, how can you assure that their lesson on exercise actually had an impact then on the performance now just on reducing, you know, the incident, for example, if from a safety standpoint, but also the overall business performance? Is your right is that way is it? Yes.

It’s absolutely because and again, I think you’re, you’ve done your change background, not you 100 change or elements. Yeah. Yes, the challenge that I’ve had throughout my career is that knowledge man is an intangible, you know, you can’t see and feel Yes. So absolutely, I’ve I’ve always focused on creating tangible benefits from this. So what we tend to do is, I took hints and tips from the lean world. Six Sigma, about KPIs key performance indicators, key measurements, and wrapping that around knowledge management, and also including human capital metrics, from human capital world where there’s many metrics which adhere themselves to knowledge management, around people performance process safety commercial, and then creating KPIs and measuring those KPIs. But ultimately, from a game with my energy hat on, it’s around three things, it’s around keeping our people safe. So any learnings which keep our workers in the field safe outputs is critical. It’s safety for our processes, our assets, the you know, the multibillion dollar assets in the field, and its environment. So having clear, specific metrics that can save can work towards those three areas. It’s this concept about, you know, reaching Ground Zero, whether it’s safety to those three elements.

Yeah, totally. Well, that’s particularly important for the industrial wall, for example, but what I’m interested to hear from you now, I mean, I’m very curious about, you know, building this learning organisation, besides you know, the tools. And because the tools, as always, they’re facilitating a change, but they’re not necessarily the way to make a change, unless something else change or happens in the organisation. Yeah, and that sneaky feeling that if we’re not changing behaviours, that will be very difficult anyway, to apply all these concepts easier, right?

Yes, no, absolutely. So I think the one key there is about when I’ve done this is to try to introduce a learning culture. And there’s a question of, of a number of things. One is around I believe that people learn for certain but so my background is in engineering, working with technical experts, but again, across any industry, industrial organisational, although there’s it’s creating that environment for learning. So I use communities, networks, forums, I foster those, embed them, where experts can connect with each other in a fairly organic approach. So again, working with some of the big oil and gas companies, experts in their field geologists, geophysicists exploration designers, well, managers, they’re happy to share learnings in their communities. And I saw I’ve seen this many times before. But um, they will post up a document to the intranet or they’re happy to share their communities. So fostering learnings in the networks is critical, because this question of trust and peer to peer acceptance, and then identifying those learnings which could be shared wider, and that’s going to be handled very carefully. And of course, by confidentiality, but also a benefit and feedback. So that’s a key element about that. The second thing is having a knowledge based learning support organisation. So you need to have the roles and responsibilities. So on projects on major projects, I always tried to introduce the concept of a learning manager, a learning knowledge manager. It could be somebody from the project team, it and it could be a part time role. It’s somebody that actually goes out there and identifies learnings, fosters that, that sharing culture. And then I combine those with a number of change events. So we capture lessons learned is a important element, and inclusion through COVID. Now, it has to be done virtually, I think we lose a lot of attraction by doing it virtually, as opposed to having Yes, I remember going out to the oil fields in a barn at 130 degrees heat 300 miles from civilization in the desert. That’s where you really start to connect learnings from the field. And always remember those first times 40, but you need the lessons learned managers to capture the learnings. It has to be sort of supported by the project directors. So you have to give time to this. And then maybe giving some form of incentive or reward, maybe giving a little bit of time off to the individuals, not necessarily financial rewards, but giving them some feedback.

Yeah, I would like to come back at your own incentive, because that’s a very interesting point that let me piggyback what you said before in terms of culture, because you know, based on the work I do, you know, culture is always in the middle of everything that you do when it comes to leadership development. And he found the sanctuary, what you’re saying is, you know, that to foster the learning organisation, that mindset and behaviour as positive behaviour in organisations, you really need to have a positive culture that allows first of all based on trust as far as I understand and agree, because otherwise they won’t be sharing, right. So I wonder if if you ever came across in your past experience you didn’t you didn’t have to say when and how wherever. It may be with some organisation that was not ready on that because the trust level maybe was low. Yeah, they did.

Yeah. It’s happened to a lot of times. It’s predominantly, I find it staff are actually quite open staff. But I’m, again, working in the energy sector, large, sometimes 50 60% of those employees are contractors. And because of star employees, contractors, contractors are held at arm’s length. But they’re not a break a lot of organisations don’t embrace them, you know, you’re here to do a job. You’re, you’re a warm body. So there’s a lack of trust there. And contractors, I it’s difficult to capture learnings from contractors. But it’s a shame, it’s a great, great gap, because some of the biggest learnings come from our experts are contractors. So it’s a question of building up that relationship of incentives. Yes. But the challenge is, of course, if that’s if that’s already started, when you build the organisation, the project, you have to start, you’re already on the backfoot. So I always ensure contract is a part of the family part of the team from early on.

Okay, that that’s, that’s awesome. Yeah. And so yeah, so so there is that element of trust, then you confirm is super important on on building that. And, but also in terms? So you mentioned a community mental and I like that, because yeah, if you don’t build that community, elements within organisations, actually, it’s very difficult to share it. I came across with an experience in the past when I was working on when organisation helping them to actually sharing knowledge, but from a different standpoint, or some more or sharing best practice on a leadership side on communication on influence. And what I noticed actually was the, when many organisations right now they’re working in silos, and when in silos, so the problem is they’re not just talking with each other. So sometimes not necessarily the culture is not good. But they are build a structure in a way that essentially prevent them from sharing internally. Is that right?

Correct. Yeah, no, absolutely. And that’s what we try to do in knowledge management is to break down those silos. Yeah. So things are much more open across. And it’s actually an interesting point, I was reading an article recently about COVID. People, there’s, I think there’s a lot of hype about what technology digital transformation has done for COVID. I think a lot of it is driven by the IT companies. I’ve read, I’ve read some research recently that says, We’re actually going the other way, we’re actually working in more silos. And we did before organisations are opening sharing, in other times when we used to have lunch and learns, or brown paper bag sessions, and invite the whole organisation to hear a great speaker. But those things are really being challenged now. And particularly with new technologies, such as the Microsoft stacks, office 365, it just encourages more siloed behaviour. Now, we’re actually it’s we’re moving backwards from our open communities, sharing ideas, and that’s a big challenge for us all.

And I think that is, I mean, I’m glad that you mentioned that because I see this as a kind of dangerous risk moving forward in particularly if you know, many organisations, they just want to work remotely. So I think one of the potential challenges or pitfall actually is this is losing that sharing the ability to share more knowledge internally, right?

Yeah. And yes, across organisations, teams, teams, teams, teams is very team focused. Yeah. But again, SharePoint was always like that for many years. You know, it became very siloed, as opposed to something that were very open, Ask the Expert.

And it’s interesting because technology supposed actually to facilitate, you know, knowledge sharing, yes, theory, but you mentioned that, I think,

I think it’s more challenging. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

Interesting. Okay. Very good point. So, and going back to the other elements, you mentioned incentive and I love that because I think many organisations I don’t believe they are incentivizing their people are motivating their people to engage mobilise, and this is one of the most common problem in organisations is engagement and motivation. And as been started, they’re praising you know, your people on what they’re doing, and celebrating their results, etc, normally really helps to lead them, you know, to be more involved in engaging the organisation. So how can you incentivize people to learn more to share more?

Okay, I think one area of incentivize or it’s, it should be an annual performance briefings, I always believe there should be a competency that’s measured around sharing knowledge, examples of that. So so for example, you know, I, One very common area is the people profiles in an organisation, you know, the profile section. Yeah, I’ve done that. I’ve always had my team’s courage in front of roll it through the organisation. People should complete their profile and update their profile on a quarterly basis.

I’ve been on you mean the intranet in their eternal, right?

Yeah, the old days. We used to call it yellow pages. All right, Pete Yeah. So that that’s a very simple approach to getting people to upload their knowledge, their skills, and then track that we can track it very easily and then track it on an annual performance basis. How many times you’ve answered a question, somebody has asked you for help. It’s a small thing. I think people are focused if it’s on their annual performance appraisal, and there is a aligned for knowledge sharing, learning, to running a lunch and learn event running an event. webinar. So and then, but again, that’s Intel’s working very closely with your HR departments to make sure that it’s built into the annual performance appraisal system that focuses on idea.

Right now, I have a question this is it? I mean, I think, you know, I know a performance from from from their perspective, I think their little be all right, I think now that we’re looking what what we see the trends now is actually having much more touchpoint with your people on maybe monthly basis, instead of just having just one final annual review. But that’s a completely different. However, your point is absolutely right, is adding that into an element of evaluation of performance evaluation. I have a question, how can you measure that? So imagine that we do that. So you know, how can you measure success from that perspective?

So yeah, again, you can either measure it by numbers usage. So you know, we can my team used to track how many times a staff member has contributed to a webinar and run a webinar written the paper in an article, presented in a lunch and learn. So those those are explicit things, but also getting a 360 degree feedback from staff who has who has helped me in the organisation, I had an issue. I reached out to somebody. And, you know, I think that that’s the anecdotal thing. Also, it’s it’s a blend of both, but they’re very powerful, because, um, I think just come back to your question about showing value. Storytelling is a huge method approach that I use in knowledge about are we knowledge managers should use, we learned from stories, yes.

Some of the early authors like Steven Denning coined that coined a lot of work around that. But I think that’s it’s actually critical. We learn from our peers, we learn from experts. And some of the forefront organisations are now saying you don’t capture lessons learned on the on the exit interviews, who reads an exit interview, you know, so let’s capture departing experts through video stories.

It’s a great, it’s a great suggestion, I think. And, and that’s, that’s great. You know why? Because I think many, many employees or many people in organisation, they’re not really doing that unless they so for example, they’re not used to, to build storytelling to build content, searching for what they produce, what they generate, etc. And that knowledge is not really transfer. So I think that is a great way that so it’s again through expertise. So I mean, up again, I did some research in early in my career, but you know, you’re, you’re inspired by the people you work with, yeah, you’re not inspired by a manual or document or report. Now, you remember, the top five people inspire you as experts in their field. And enforced content, forward thinking organisations, even after they left the organisation, you should be able to reach out to them, they should be in a luminary of experts that you can reach out to. And I think that’s, you know, when you when you leave or retire, that’s, that’s your your, your career and your expertise still continues. And so forward thinking organisations are still doing that.

is interesting, because, you know, when we when we think about storytelling on sharing, people that are concerned about confidentiality, because I think they need to share something externally, but what you’re saying is sharing actually things internally is building their learning. Yeah, knowledge internally, right? Absolutely. And also think that 360 is a great idea because the 360, if you add in that as a measurement, that’s clearly First of all, you give importance to sharing and learning and the knowledge side, and second, you can actually get as you as you, as you correctly said, you can get a specific measurement out of that.

And another chance as we use incentives was things such as we have a CEO quarterly award for knowledge sharing, I’ve seen I’ve seen organisations that CEO knowledge sharing event, awards, recognition, you know, for the team, for the best learning event of the month, they get a coffee mug, or you know, things like things such as that which which people I think they still enjoy that.

Yeah, you can do some prize awards, you know, simple things, but can help people to to be engaged, right?

And now there’s a big push in the knowledge world. I’m not tripping over it. It’s called no vember but no as in kn o w. I’m not sure if you’ve heard that.

No, I know Movember but we didn’t hear that.

So we had a lot of forward thinking and now we have it in November week in November, right? And it’s just capturing what people do in knowledge management in that week and we bring in speakers we bring in our intimate events. And it’s a week of knowledge sharing, and it’s now become quite Oh, it’s November in, you know, we need experts speak. And it’s a great way for, for sharing and communicating.

Yeah. Last thing I’d like to ask you, you mentioned it, appointing a learning manager or somewhere responsible for doing that, I think is a great idea. Now a question for those organisations or those leaders they already have, you know, like the l&d so the Learning and Development Manager is the same person or you suggest Yes, to be someone else. Um,

I think I sent you a really good point, because I’ve also seen knowledge management and learning, combining together to become knowledge and learning, it’s happening in a lot of organisations. But for this, for this particular role, this would be a separate role within knowledge management, so knowledge learning manager, or learning content manager, they could fit within the whole organisation. But these are individuals who actually go out there to capture the learnings capture the Novell capture the best practices. Yeah. And that’s, that’s a skill set around. Yeah, lessons learned. So it couldn’t be that it could be the same department, they are merging, they have the same skill sets. Nothing to stop that. Yeah.

But you’re right. I mean, there is an element of project maybe business initiative. So having someone days later be, you know, out of the traditional function that might help.

It could help Yes, when particularly to set it up area. So something’s gone wrong in a project, you need a facilitator that’s outside of your project, to help and assist with that. Okay.

And Alright, so I would like to I mean, we we covered a lot today, I think there was fantastic sharing with you. And I would like to, to ask you, the last five questions are less related to the knowledge management, but you know, it’s more about your leadership, career, your journey, your development, where you learn, etc. So are you up for it? Quick? Okay. So, and by the way, for those that are listening, we’re gonna ask the same five questions to all the guests because we I’m very curious to hear the response, what they’re saying. So okay, number one. So what is the number one lesson that you really learn in your career and has been create incredible career? So I’m sure that you have many, but what is the number one,

I think choose your stakeholders carefully. Choose your supporters carefully, particularly knowledge management, because you have, they have to get it and they have to support it. It’s like change management or learning. So choose your supporters very carefully, someone who’s going to be a key sponsor and director for you, is very important. And it’s a heart to mind thing. So I think that’s really important when you stop in my field of knowledge management, somebody who could who could really be a significant supporter. So more like a mentor or more like a supporting building that credibility and I think it’s the credibility it’s the profile, somebody who can actually support you in good times and hard times.

Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s important, by the way, because that applies, actually to any any person in the business world. The second question is, is very interesting, because it’s one of the areas I like, talking more about is the performance so and what I’m really curious to hear from you is, when you had imagined remember, try to remember when you had your most brilliant, er, or in the organisation, when was that? My most important? Why do you think that happened? So what were the conditions to allow you to have an incredible performance as an individual?

I think it was gained when there was a major challenge and it had to be fixed. And one project was haemorrhaging many 1000s of millions of dollars on a project. It project was in danger of potentially collapsing. Real quick fix had to be introduced. And I think I think one of the major benefits I then brought in was, as I said, before, bringing in a project that was successful, and connecting the two projects together, connecting experts together. And having that moment where, you know, there was an issue with a particular wellhead, the earlier project that you identified a cost reduction with a new vendor. And it was that connection between the two which actually happened very quickly. And and then the basis that it saved something like $60 million and a six month reduction on the project timelines because we connected specialists together in the right environment to share knowledge and that’s really what I do so that was that was a key element from the I think, yes, brilliant so we can think of the takeaways is connecting

Yes. Able, you know, to connecting dots or connecting things to get better results great. We you know, we talked about lesson learned and of course, I need to ask you that so well well, what is one thing that you You would have would have done differently in your career as a lesson that you learn.

It’s I think I would have actually, because I tried to all work together, I would have moved earlier to the Middle East. And okay, that’s a lesson learned. Because it was it’s such a hotbed for, I think innovation, and it’s for design, they’re hungry for education, for learning, and that fed perfectly with knowledge management. Yes. It’s really still a very young region, young population. And I think, I think I could have really enjoyed moving earlier into that environment. They were open to suggestions, and particularly around things such as I mentioned, for storytelling, that’s an Arabic, a very strong Arabic culture. You know, they you learn from the elders. So the connection there were beautifully, you know, they they respected seniors, they respect storytelling. Yeah. Yeah, of course, it’s great. I mean, I know you know, quite a lot. I work in their countries, you and they are craving for knowledge and craving for that.

Yes, yeah. And there’s, there’s a respect and there’s a willingness to learn. And yeah. So that’s a perfect, perfect environment.

Now. Okay. That’s great, great lesson. So, a couple of last few final questions. So what is your favourite business leader? So someone that you work with? If there is any, or someone that you You didn’t work with? Or maybe you got it?

Yeah, that’s okay. That’s quite easy for me. As a lead I can, his name is Stan Garfield, okay, um, and he is a knowledge, a long term knowledge management guru. He, okay. He’s been around for even longer than myself. comes out of the states, we both worked together in Deloitte, but I never actually met him face to face. But he is, um, he is absolutely is a fountain fountain of knowledge. And what I really love about him is he’s totally open to sharing it, right? So many years of experience, expertise, content, written books, seminars, webinars, it’s all openly available. Now, that’s this whole concept about, you know, the thing you take away with you or you keep it or you share it, and it’s a fountain of knowledge. And I think anyone that has an interest in knowledge management from our speakers should go search Stan, Stan Garfield says it’s an amazing amount of materials. And he’s also he has also taken a very practical approach to it. It’s very, very practical and straightforward approach. Because a lot of knowledge about just the bachelor, if you will, it’s very academic. Yes, academia, it becomes a huge turgid thing. That grey, I’ve certainly recommended Sunday and still today inspires me. Yeah.

Fantastic. Last question, what’s your favourite business or leadership book,

it would be new rules for the new economy. For Kevin Kelly, okay. Um, and he inspired me back in the.com era, he was writing for the Wired Magazine, wired, grew up with.com. And I was in London at the time, and it was very exciting time. But he wrote one book on euro for the new economy, which actually was one of the earliest books about connecting the digital economy. And it’s a, it was just a fantastic book about, you know, his vision of what the the new connected communities the new economy could bring. And it was also very inspiring. And then he’s written quite a few books, but that one particularly inspired me about connecting work and connecting and communities,

that’s always looking for new books to read. So that sounds like this is gonna be a new one for me. Fantastic. And thank you so much for today. So where the people today in the audience can go to to learn more about what you do and maybe contact you.

Yeah, I think I’ve just setting up my website in a moment, but you can contact me at Hank [email protected].

Okay, and me, I’m suppose they can find you as well on so

I’m very active on LinkedIn, I do a lot of posts. And you’ll find a lot of me I’m quite easy to contact.

Perfect. And thank you so much. That’s been awesome conversation. So we should the best of luck for your new consulting business.

Thank you very much.


And thank you so much for listening to this episode. I hope you find it insightful and you can apply some of the lessons there Hank has shared with all of us. And if you want to have a summary of what has been discussed today with some major takeaways, please go to www.andreapetrone.com and go to the episode number four where you can actually have access to the recording but also summary and are the shoulders. So hope to see you next time on the next episode. Bye


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